And the problem with most people nowadays is their lack of reasoning facilities
- they just eat whatever is dictated to them, without considering if it enrages
reason or not.
Quote: yes. in the end its
politically motivated. you admit that yourself.
I did not say that politics hammered Galileo's impious mouth. Read again - I
said a combination of dogma and politics silenced Galileo, with religious dogma
a dominant factor.
Quote: yes i would be joining you
in hell. but fortunately that is not true.
But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the
afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the
Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it.
They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually
excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right
faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the
true faith?
Quote: so this means we are done on
abraham and now moving on the next issue?
I give Japtheth, one of the Judges, as my rebuttal to your answer - what is
that? Oh, that Abraham was only tested by God. God, eternal jester he is.
Quote: if you can even find the
slightest clue, that is :/
Clues? There is more than sufficient evidence, both in nature and in logic, to
refute each and every argument that the pious have. I do not have time to
elaborate right now, though, so... next time.
Quote: well sadly, like i said
before, there is no proof.
Oh, so you throw all arguments that do slightly favor you - and offer faith
instead to prove that God exists?
Quote by CagariLet's start with this:
Look around you. Everything's just too complex to have been made by chance. The
natural laws, an eye, feelings, air, heck water. Our universe is just too
complex for chance to have made it. Believing that chance made the universe is
like believing that a can of chalk dust might make a chalk stick if you shook it
long enough.
You're treading on dangerous ground here. Thing is, if God said He wrote the
Bible(II Timothy 3:16), and since He, Who is righteous and holy(sacred, revered,
incorruptible, right, ya know the good stuff)(Psalm 145:17) wrote it, there is
nothing wrong or incorrect about it. I'd rather believe what's written in there
than what other people try to tell me, because as I've stated before, He's the
only One Who's not corrupt.
I don't need hardcore scientific proof to know that there's a God. All I need to
do is look around me and in me.
Ah, the design argument. Pretty nice stuff, if you're oblivious.
Let me explain the best and shortest I could. I am not an expert on the topic I
am about to discuss, but I shall try my best.
First off, Darwinian evolution (or, and I prefer this, natural selection) is not
chance. Not at all. Organisms evolve over time, in stages, shedding unnecessary
features and keeping those needed for survival, evidence being intermediaries
you can see all around.
Second, while physicists can offer no explanation for the origins of the
universe, that does not mean your hypothesis - that God created everything -
wins the debate. As of now, we're all agnostics on the origin of the
universe.
Yes, you make an analogy about the universe - that of a can of chalk dust
becoming a stick of chalk when shaken long enough. But, I ask you: how about
your God? If you think about it well enough, the deity you are taking about is
the chalk dust you hope that becomes a stick of chalk. Why? He's just as
improbable as the universe - I mean, a designer who designs something has to
have a designer himself.
So, my query: WHO DESIGNED GOD?
Yes, about the Bible - all those events in the Pentateuch? Myths. Gruesome,
cruel, but myths.
So, with all the evidence in the world that God, most probably, does not
exist... you still won't believe, if only because your "holy" book
says God exists?
You were correct in your assumption, only that many people tried to convince me
to come back to the Roman Catholicism of my parents. I demolished their
arguments in spectacular fashion.
However, I would be lying prostrate before God the second someone comes to me
with inviolable proof that God (of whatever religion) exists.
Quote by ttwentoo bad for you bible is not
a fiction. It's a history book.
It might be too pretentious of me to assume you are one of those literalists who
take the Exodus as fact, but anyway, if you are, then I say:
This history book of yours is so riddled with inaccuracies and impossibilties,
it would've been funny, had it not been treated with the reverence it has for so
long.
Quote by ttwenFrom your view, yes, dying
for religion is stupid and ignorant. for me its not. Well religious people are
not ignorant at all. There are scientists who practice religions after
all.
For my last statement, I believe as long as you believe in christianity, and for
that matter is a follower is a true believer.
maybe Isaac panicked in the end as you said, i don't know. but about the
sacrifice God never intended Isaac to be sacrificed anyway. He had an angel
ready to stop that.
Dying because of theological disagreements - if Mary had indeed been born and
lived as a virgin or not, over the mystery of the Trinity, over which books
should be included into the New Testament canon, taking your religion for
instance - is sheer stupidity.
Maybe, not now, but eons before this era of ours, theologians used to speak,
with obssessive intensity, of the length of angels' wings. Anything against
recieved dogma is trashed, and their promulgators persecuted - look at Galileo,
for example.
How about the Muslims? The Mormons? Protestants? Animists? Atheists? Agnostics?
How about the rest of us?
So God was joking and bullying Abraham at the same time when he aired his
proposal to Abraham. Nice. Eternal jester, God is.
Or, at least, prove to me that, in a graduating spectrum of probabilities, the
existence of that being people call God is as probable as the fact that a slice
of pizza that I put in my microwave oven comes out as a slice of pizza, and not
a loaf of bread.
For purposes of familiarity, I will only answer arguments made in favor of the
Abrahamic God, excluding Islam.
Quote: does dying in this world
matters when you are going to have eternal life in heaven? Well that applies to
true believers of God anyway :/
Millions of people have died due to religion - due to theological disagreements
over different interpretations of a "holy" book, due to the mutual
incompatability (and mutual nonesensical blabbering against science and reason)
of their respective religions.
Millions of people have been ignorant of the possibilities beyond the dogma of
their religion's infantile and cruel imaginations - the cell, life smaller than
what we can see, the universe, the universe...
And - your last statement - who do you think are the true believers of God?
Roman Catholics? Anglicans? Mormons? Presbyterians? Muslims? Hindus?
WHAT?
Quote: Gen 22:8-9 - 'Abraham
answered,"God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my
son." And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God
had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He
bound his son Issac and laid him on the altar on top of the wood.'
from what you can see here, Abraham told his son beforehand he is going to be a
sacrifice. BUT, Isaac didn't run away. AND, Abraham only tied up his son only
when he was prepared for the sacrifice.
anyway, yes. I would, even if i am a firm believer of God in those days. Thats
why Abraham never told his wife about her son being a sacrifice :/
but then, its just a test from God in the end. I say quite a cruel test :/
Told? TOLD? If he told Isaac that he's going to cook the holy shit out of Isaac,
then he did it in absurdly vague terms, in which Isaac would take what he said
as fact: that God would really come down from whatever abode he was staying and
provide the lamb for the sacrifice.
Quote by priincess o. O good question n
hard to answer. uhmmm.. i dont think Isaac's crying ^.^' i always imagine if
Isaac at that time was just waiting what his father would do, with a calm face.
bcoz he knew his father is a good father.
well, if God wanted His plan to be not interupted by anyone else, of course
there would be some kind of feelings that make me not to stop him. n if u're a
believer just like Abraham, u'd know if what he was doing is
right.
WHAT?
A guy:
who would marry his stepsister;
who would, so that his own skin would be saved from persecution, passed off his
wife as his sister (which has something of a basis in Scripture) when he went to
Egypt and Gerar, and let her belong to the harems of their respective
rulers;
who would banish his concubine (however reluctanctly) to the wilderness, along
with his son by her;
who would circumcise every male member of his household;
- IS A GOOD FATHER?
And do you seriously believe that a child, bound to an altar, facing death,
about to be sacrificed to whatever voice his own father claims to hear in his
head; would not scream, would not cry, would not beg for his father TO STOP?
To anima241 (and, since you bring yourself in, shoujoboy):
Let us say that everyone's a total dickhead, that everyone lives to suck off
sympathy off other persons, for one's own betterment. Would it be better to just
accept that reality, and be swallowed by it?
Quote by priincessGod asked him to do
that to tested his faith, of course God wouldnt really asked him to
kill
An example would be in order.
Imagine yourself seeing the whole spectacle - Issac, bound crying, wailing,
Abraham preparing his knife for the kill; you are just a newcomer, who happens
to see it, and does not know that God, eternal jester he is, would
intervene:
WOULD YOU BE SO AGHAST AS TO STOP HIM FROM KILLING HIS OWN SON?
Quote by priincessas i said that the
Old Testament isnt perfect yet, then God made the new one. the loons actually
stoned a man to death? which part of the Bible wrote this
one?
The loons I mention here are the Jews, who, too observant (or too fearful?) of
their murderous deity, stoned the poor harmless guy to death. Go to Numbers
15.
On what criterion do you say that the Old Testament isn't perfect, anyhow?
Quote: God makes us learn how to
love people like ourselves, live peacefully n avoid bad things, so it must be
the man himself who doesnt understand God but learn Bible based from his own
interpretation (which He doesnt allow us to) n then take a wrong action. it's
simple, if u think it's bad, dont do it. if u were really so close to God, u'd
be able to hear the Holy Spirit inside u, that could make u understand, what's
bad n what's not
The Gray Witch
Utter, ignoble lie in the unfortunate position as an all-time bestseller.
And the problem with most people nowadays is their lack of reasoning facilities - they just eat whatever is dictated to them, without considering if it enrages reason or not.
I did not say that politics hammered Galileo's impious mouth. Read again - I said a combination of dogma and politics silenced Galileo, with religious dogma a dominant factor.
But what criterion do you have to say that your religion's teachings on the afterlife is true? The Catholic brings out his Bible and blabbers on hell; the Muslim brings out his Koran and blabbers about his own dogma's version of it. They are mutually incompatible, with their "holy" books mutually excmmunicating members of other faiths because they do not belong to the right faith. How would you know that, out of a welter of religions, that yours is the true faith?
I give Japtheth, one of the Judges, as my rebuttal to your answer - what is that? Oh, that Abraham was only tested by God. God, eternal jester he is.
Clues? There is more than sufficient evidence, both in nature and in logic, to refute each and every argument that the pious have. I do not have time to elaborate right now, though, so... next time.
Oh, so you throw all arguments that do slightly favor you - and offer faith instead to prove that God exists?
Ah, the design argument. Pretty nice stuff, if you're oblivious.
Let me explain the best and shortest I could. I am not an expert on the topic I am about to discuss, but I shall try my best.
First off, Darwinian evolution (or, and I prefer this, natural selection) is not chance. Not at all. Organisms evolve over time, in stages, shedding unnecessary features and keeping those needed for survival, evidence being intermediaries you can see all around.
Second, while physicists can offer no explanation for the origins of the universe, that does not mean your hypothesis - that God created everything - wins the debate. As of now, we're all agnostics on the origin of the universe.
Yes, you make an analogy about the universe - that of a can of chalk dust becoming a stick of chalk when shaken long enough. But, I ask you: how about your God? If you think about it well enough, the deity you are taking about is the chalk dust you hope that becomes a stick of chalk. Why? He's just as improbable as the universe - I mean, a designer who designs something has to have a designer himself.
So, my query: WHO DESIGNED GOD?
Yes, about the Bible - all those events in the Pentateuch? Myths. Gruesome, cruel, but myths.
Jesus? Unverifiable.
God? Questionable.
So, with all the evidence in the world that God, most probably, does not exist... you still won't believe, if only because your "holy" book says God exists?
You were correct in your assumption, only that many people tried to convince me to come back to the Roman Catholicism of my parents. I demolished their arguments in spectacular fashion.
However, I would be lying prostrate before God the second someone comes to me with inviolable proof that God (of whatever religion) exists.
Problem is, none has.
Hmmm... 1984, anyone?
I read.
A putrid combination of dogmatic bullshit and political maneuvering, with the dogma a dominating factor in his eventual house arrest.
Well, what if the Islam version of heaven - 72 virgins and all - turns out to be right? Then, you'll be joining me in hell, right?
Japtheth and his daughter, anyone?
It might be too pretentious of me to assume you are one of those literalists who take the Exodus as fact, but anyway, if you are, then I say:
This history book of yours is so riddled with inaccuracies and impossibilties, it would've been funny, had it not been treated with the reverence it has for so long.
And the Bible? Isn't it fiction, too?
Dying because of theological disagreements - if Mary had indeed been born and lived as a virgin or not, over the mystery of the Trinity, over which books should be included into the New Testament canon, taking your religion for instance - is sheer stupidity.
Maybe, not now, but eons before this era of ours, theologians used to speak, with obssessive intensity, of the length of angels' wings. Anything against recieved dogma is trashed, and their promulgators persecuted - look at Galileo, for example.
How about the Muslims? The Mormons? Protestants? Animists? Atheists? Agnostics? How about the rest of us?
So God was joking and bullying Abraham at the same time when he aired his proposal to Abraham. Nice. Eternal jester, God is.
There's always mention of, say, Toru Okada in Haruki Murakami's The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, or Ahab in Herman Melville's Moby-Dick.
Does that mean that they exist as well?
Or, at least, prove to me that, in a graduating spectrum of probabilities, the existence of that being people call God is as probable as the fact that a slice of pizza that I put in my microwave oven comes out as a slice of pizza, and not a loaf of bread.
For purposes of familiarity, I will only answer arguments made in favor of the Abrahamic God, excluding Islam.
Here's mine (existing or not):
Tokyo Jihen
Guns 'n' Roses
Skunk Anansie
My Chemical Romance
ABBA
Beatles
Queen
etc.
Name him. Put something of an identity to him (they made sure there would be no prophetesses, huh?).
Millions of people have died due to religion - due to theological disagreements over different interpretations of a "holy" book, due to the mutual incompatability (and mutual nonesensical blabbering against science and reason) of their respective religions.
Millions of people have been ignorant of the possibilities beyond the dogma of their religion's infantile and cruel imaginations - the cell, life smaller than what we can see, the universe, the universe...
And - your last statement - who do you think are the true believers of God? Roman Catholics? Anglicans? Mormons? Presbyterians? Muslims? Hindus? WHAT?
Told? TOLD? If he told Isaac that he's going to cook the holy shit out of Isaac, then he did it in absurdly vague terms, in which Isaac would take what he said as fact: that God would really come down from whatever abode he was staying and provide the lamb for the sacrifice.
Yes. God - eternal jester he is.
WHAT?
A guy:
who would marry his stepsister;
who would, so that his own skin would be saved from persecution, passed off his wife as his sister (which has something of a basis in Scripture) when he went to Egypt and Gerar, and let her belong to the harems of their respective rulers;
who would banish his concubine (however reluctanctly) to the wilderness, along with his son by her;
who would circumcise every male member of his household;
- IS A GOOD FATHER?
And do you seriously believe that a child, bound to an altar, facing death, about to be sacrificed to whatever voice his own father claims to hear in his head; would not scream, would not cry, would not beg for his father TO STOP?
To anima241 (and, since you bring yourself in, shoujoboy):
Let us say that everyone's a total dickhead, that everyone lives to suck off sympathy off other persons, for one's own betterment. Would it be better to just accept that reality, and be swallowed by it?
An example would be in order.
Imagine yourself seeing the whole spectacle - Issac, bound crying, wailing, Abraham preparing his knife for the kill; you are just a newcomer, who happens to see it, and does not know that God, eternal jester he is, would intervene:
WOULD YOU BE SO AGHAST AS TO STOP HIM FROM KILLING HIS OWN SON?
Who?
OK - this time, I do not understand you; your first statement contradicts your second.
The loons I mention here are the Jews, who, too observant (or too fearful?) of their murderous deity, stoned the poor harmless guy to death. Go to Numbers 15.
On what criterion do you say that the Old Testament isn't perfect, anyhow?
Then what?
Go to Genesis 22.
A sad story, indeed... and I agree with Raindrop on this...
... love and lust... blah blah blah...
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